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Monday, May 10, 2010

New paper on Y-DNA haplogroup C


Natsuya points me to this new paper on the distribution and likely spread of Y-DNA haplogroup C, with special focus on East Asia and subhaplogroup C3.


Hua Zhong et al. Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia. Journal of Human Genetics 2010. Pay per view (but you can read it freely at ZohoViewer).

CONCLUSIONS
We demonstrated the phylogeographic distribution of one of the most ancient non-African Y-chromosome lineages, from which we inferred the prehistoric migration and expansion of the Hg C lineage. We propose that Hg C was derived from the African exodus and gradually colonized South Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania and East Asia by a single Paleolithic migration from Africa to Asia and Oceania, which occurred more than 40KYA. The prehistoric northward migration of Hg C in mainland East Asia likely followed the coastline and is consistent with the northward migration of other East Asian Y-chromosome haplogroups.
Nothing too new as you can see, however the the data detail and the neighbor-joining trees of haplotypes for C3 and C5 are of some interest, suggesting that C3 probably coalesced a Mid-East Asia (China and surroundings) rather than SE or NE Asia.

C6 was not located anywhere, suggesting that it's just a very minor clade. In contrast South Asian specific C5 was detected among 2.5% of Indians and 1.5% of Southern Pakistanis, reminiscent of a back-migration from SE Asia by the same "coastal route" that was used to reach SE Asia at an earlier moment.

It's interesting also the still rather high amount of undefined C* found in various areas: 4.6% in Philippines, 5.6% in East Indonesia, 5.9% in Micronesia, 5.6% in Australian Aborigines, 9.1% among the Mulau of Guangxi, 6.9 among the Shui of Guizhou, 7.6 among the Yao of Guangxi, 7.7 among the Tujia of Hubei, 8.2 among the Hui of Ningxia and 6.7 among the Hezhe of Heilojiang. It is also potentially interesting the 0.5% in India because it might have greater densities in some of its very diverse populations (but it's treated as a single homogenous sample in this paper).

40 comments:

terryt said...

"In contrast South Asian specific C5 was detected among 2.5% of Indians and 1.5% of Southern Pakistanis, reminiscent of a back-migration from SE Asia by the same 'coastal route' that was used to reach SE Asia at an earlier moment".

Actually what I found interesting in the diagrams Dienekes posted was that there is no geographic connection at all between the South Asian and SE Asian Y-hap Cs. Especially when we consider the relatively close relationship between C3 and C5:

"the the data detail and the neighbor-joining trees of haplotypes for C3 and C5 are of some interest, suggesting that C3 probably coalesced a Mid-East Asia (China and surroundings) rather than SE or NE Asia".

I'm fairly sure I mentioned some time ago that I was sure we would find a connection between Y-hap C3 and Y-hap C5. Here we have it.

"It's interesting also the still rather high amount of undefined C* found in various areas"

And found not only in SE Asia, but further north as well. Even though the authors are very definite in their conclusions, it's actually difficult to say whether their claimed prehistoric 'migration of Hg C in mainland East Asia [that] likely followed the coastline' was northwards or southwards. Especially when we consider the apparent separate origin of Y-hap C1 and Y-hap C3.

Maju said...

"... there is no geographic connection at all between the South Asian and SE Asian Y-hap Cs".

Not sure if that it's true but does it matter?

"... a connection between Y-hap C3 and Y-hap C5. Here we have it".

Yunnan?

"And found not only in SE Asia, but further north as well".

And in India too but it does seem obvious that the highest and more systematic presence is in SE Asia (incl. southern China).

Andrew Oh-Willeke said...

Other studies have associated C6 with the Highlands of Papua New Guinea, which were probably not included in this sample.

Maju said...

They used a sample of almost 500 individuals from 10 different populations in PNG, these come from three different research papers: Hudjasov 2007, Kayser 2006 and Hammer 2006. And they were tested for C6 markers.

So... it seems just another C* given a specific too fast, before checking if it was private or not.

terryt said...

"So... it seems just another C* given a specific too fast, before checking if it was private or not".

I agree that seems to be the case.

"Not sure if that it's true but does it matter?"

It certainly seems to be true of the map Dienekes posted. As for 'does it matter?' It suggests complete replacement of Y-hap C between its presence in northwest India and SE Asia. Is that likley to have happened? Possible I suppose.

"Yunnan?"

No. C5 doesn't reach anywhere near Yunan, but it does meet up with C3's distribution in western China. Although I'll admit Y-hap C3's presence in western China may be only relatively recent, perhaps Mongolian expansion.

terryt said...

"but it does seem obvious that the highest and more systematic presence is in SE Asia (incl. southern China)".

But we know that 'highest and more systematic presence', and highest diversity, does not necessarily indicate region of origin.

Maju said...

The map Dienekes posted is nothing but the map in the paper, which you should have read as it's available at this link (also in the post but seems that has been oversighted).

As always maps are just representations and the small apportions of C5 in South Asia are not even depicted. You should look at the data.

"No. C5 doesn't reach anywhere near Yunan"...

AFAIK it does exist in Bengal. Yunnan and the NE Indian and Burmese highlands are just at spitting distance.

Actually Yunnan is a bad reference. The populations with most undefined C* (and hence candidates to be most directly related to the ancestral C population) are:

- India: 0.5% (notice the sheer size and known diversity of the Indian population, so it's a relevant figure most probably)
- Philippines: 4.6%
- East Indonesia: 5.6%
- Micronseia 5.9%
- Australia (Abor.): 5.6%
- Mulao (Guangxi): 9.1%
- Shui (Guizhou): 6.9%
- Yao (Guangxi): 8.0%
- Tujia (Hubei): 7.7%
- Hui (Ningxia): 8.2%
- Hezhe (Heilongjiang): 6.7%

This tells me that C probably exploded in SE Asia, so pre-C5 must have back-migrated to India from there, along some relevant C*.

South Asian C3 is a totally different story, as this clade probably spread separately through the steppes and tundra after its East Asian genesis. However one thing this paper evidences is that there's a lot of C3* (up to 30% in some cases) in South and East Asia, so maybe we still have something to learn in this regard.

terryt said...

"As always maps are just representations"

And usually very revealing. My job when I first left university was actually making them, so I understand them quite well.

From the article:

"Hg C5 occurs in India and its neighboring regions Pakistan and Nepal".

Obviously mostly in north western Southern Asia. The authors do concede:

"In mainland East Asia, four Hg C5 individuals were detected, including two in Xibe, one in Uygur and one in Shanxi Han".

Obviously not common in those regions, and possibly recently introduced, not a region of origin. The authors even concede, 'the STR-variation age of Hg C5 also reflects recent population expansion time (14.2±3.3 KYA)'.

Further, from the article:

"The Hg C5 sublineage in India is also distinctive in the MDSplot, but with relatively short genetic distances with the East Asian populations".

So, it's much more distantly connected to SE Asian C2 or Australaian C4. Or Japanese C1.

"This tells me that C probably exploded in SE Asia"

But that doesn't mean it originated there. In fact the authors state, 'Hg C3* was detected in multiple regions,including Southeast Asia, East Asia, Central Asia and Siberia', although they do suggest that C* individuals in the north may actually be C3. But Y-hap C was obviously widespread, early on. Makes it difficult, if not impossible, to narrow down its place of origin.

"However one thing this paper evidences is that there's a lot of C3* (up to 30% in some cases) in South and East Asia, so maybe we still have something to learn in this regard".

I agree that some of us still have something to learn. Most of us accept it as showing a movement south into SE Asia, as I tried to point out in one of your earlier posts.

"We believe that M48 originated in NEAS populations, which agrees well with thesuggested recent migration (for example, the Mongol expansion) of M48-derived individuals into Central Asia and Siberia"

So the authors claim C3 originated in China and was carried west by the Mongols. I remember someone saying something relevant about that conclusion.

Maju said...

"And usually very revealing".

Only if they are good enough for the purpose you need them. In this case, we'd need not just a frequency map for C but rather a diversity map or a series of frequency maps for each one of the sublineages, including unclassified C*.

This map (a mere generalistic C frequency map) does not serve that purpose, so building your conclusions upon it is a waste of time (for you and me).

Maps are in any case never 1:1 (that can only be reality). Maps are never reality but better or worse restricted representations of it at best.

To interpret a map you need to understand what it represents, otherwise you may end up trying to swim in a mountain or trying to climb a sea.

"Obviously mostly in north western Southern Asia".

You know well that it's not the case, that C5 is present in Southern India and not in North Pakistan. We have discussed this before.

"But that doesn't mean it originated there".

In practical terms it does. Whatever happened between CF and C is not yet C but CF* and has left no trace except C and F.

Based on that it's likely that CF coalesced in South Asia or at the OOA migratory route between Africa and South Asia.

So C surely coalesced in SE Asia even if 'pre-C' (CF*) arrived from India.

"But Y-hap C was obviously widespread, early on. Makes it difficult, if not impossible, to narrow down its place of origin".

Let's see:

-C* mostly SE Asia, some in NE Asia, Australia and South Asia
-C1 restricted to Japan
-C2 restricted to Melanesia (and the Polynesian area)
-C3 the only widespread lineage, surely originated in China
-C4 restricted to Australia
-C5 restricted to South Asia

Problem 1: find the centroid.

Solution1: roughly in SE Asia.

Problem2: compare the centroid with related ancestral clades, notably F. Describe the correction to be used for the C centroid in order to find its likely origin.

Solution2: any correction to be applied should be in the direction of South Asia (F) and East Africa (CDEF).

Overall conclusion: C originated in SE Asia or just before arrival to this area by the migrant carriers (in South Asia).

"Most of us accept it as showing a movement south into SE Asia, as I tried to point out in one of your earlier posts".

Why C*? Shouldn't it be a more distinct (fixated) clade? Why is it present also in South Asia?

"So the authors claim C3 originated in China and was carried west by the Mongols".

Not just Mongols, which are just an episode of the expansions of NE Asians, but by NE Asians in general, specially Turks I'd say.

waggg said...

Maju, what datae makes hg F originating for sure in South Asia exactly?

waggg said...

Oh wait, you're just looking at the repartition of all its descendants and the path CF likely took after the OOA, right?

Maju said...

Sure. It's a combination of diversity, geographic distribution and common sense.

Of all top level descendants of F, F1, F2, F3 (?), F4 and much F*, as well as H, are South Asian. The rest (IJK, G, F2 and some F* are distributed around it and in the IJK case also in it).

You can think of other possibilities but this is the most likely one. IMO, for the earliest Eurasian expansion period, Y-DNA F and mtDNA M expanded in parallel, while less "explosive" lineages (Y-DNA C and D and mtDNA N) found their opportunity only in SE Asia.

I suspect that there was a back-flow of Y-DNA C with mtDNA N into South Asia then (2nd moment) leading to the coalescence of R (specially), which in turn expanded, not with C anymore, but with Y-DNA IJK and its sublineage MNOPS.

But there's room for some tweaking in the interpretations, I guess. Whatever the case, they talk of a period of flows and back-flows between South and SE Asia before demic pressure was high enough to stop them altogether, directing the expansion then towards less accessible lands: West Eurasia (dominated by the strong and intelligent Neanderthal cousin) and NE Asia (really cold and extreme).

Natsuya said...

The paper indicates:

"Interestingly, besides Hg C1, Japanese also have M217-derived individuals who have a close
relationship with the Han Chinese ( Figures 3a and b ), rather than with the Altaic-speaking populations."

I really wonder when these C3* moved from China to Japan.
It's possible that part of C3* were brought to Japan by Microlithic hunter-gatherers, and part of C3* were carried to Japan by early farmers from the coastline of China.

MJ Network of C3*:

http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1005/100513211553d82886dae8179a.png

Natsuya said...

And one more thing, how would Ainu C3* fit in the picture?

Maju said...

"I really wonder when these C3* moved from China to Japan".

I'm not too certain but there seems to be certain genetic links between southern Japan, Ryu Kyu and the Shanghai area, right?

"how would Ainu C3* fit in the picture?"

How strictly Ainu is it? Because otherwise it might have arrived from Japanese. But guess that there's a good chance that is something Ainu-specific too, being them such an ancient people.

Natsuya said...

Skeletons and aDNA of ancient remains found in Jiangsu of eastern China fit well with ancient Yayoi remains of western Japan. I believe Jiangsu, along with Korea, would be one of homelands of Yayoi farmers.

Shanghai is not so likely, because aDNA found near Shanghai was mostly O1a-M119 and O1a2-M110, which is uncommon in Japan.

Maju said...

Well Jiangsu is near Shanghai. I don't know too well the details but it seems to me that it's around Shanghai area where north and south China meet genetically - but if it's 200 km north or south... beats me. :)

Natsuya said...

Ainu people have D2(90%) and C3*(10%). I do not think C3* among Ainu is derived from mainland Japanese. If C3* is from Japanese, we should more Hg O, but there's no Hg O among Ainu people.

I suppose Ainu share similar C3* with their northern neighbors, Nivkhs and other Siberian natives.

Ainu people are a mixed population between ancient Jomons of northern Japan and ancient Okhotsk people coming from Siberia.

[url]http://konglong.5d6d.com/viewthread.php?tid=7243&page=4#pid127228[/url]

[url]http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1001/1001270229327b2622a49499aa.png[/url]

[url]http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1001/100127022998733527dc9c31bd.png[/url]

Natsuya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Natsuya said...

Mitochondrial DNA haplogrouping of the Okhotsk people based on analysis of ancient DNA:
an intermediate of gene flow from the continental Sakhalin people to the Ainu

http://konglong.5d6d.com/viewthread.php?tid=7243&page=4#pid127228

http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1001/1001270229327b2622a49499aa.png

http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1001/100127022998733527dc9c31bd.png

Maju said...

"Ainu people have D2(90%) and C3*(10%). I do not think C3* among Ainu is derived from mainland Japanese. If C3* is from Japanese, we should more Hg O, but there's no Hg O among Ainu people".

Makes total sense.

Btw, BBcode (forums' code) can't work in comments here. You need to use HTML code, which is often similar but uses <...> instead of [...]

To make a link:

[a href=address ]text[/a]

But replace the [...] by <...>.

Italic: [i]text[/i]

Bold: [b]text[/b]

Etc. But always with <> instead of []

Maju said...

Btw, interesting links, thanks.

Ebizur said...

I see too many people leaping to unjustified conclusions and tossing around inaccurate data here. :P

As for Ainu Y-DNA, the only published data are from Tajima et al. 2004 (14/16 = 87.5% D2, 2/16 = 12.5% C3) and Hammer et al. 2005 (3/4 D2, 1/4 C3-M217(xC3c-M86)). Assuming that these two samples are independent of each other, we would have a total of 17/20 = 85% D2 and 3/20 = 15% C3, with only one of the C3 individuals having been tested for any subclade (C3c-M86 in this case, for which the tested individual was negative). It seems premature to assume that all Ainu C3 individuals are C3*.

Second, the published data on Ainu Y-DNA should appear suspicious to anyone who is familiar with the history of these people, because they share a great deal of obvious cultural and linguistic similarities with the Japanese (including a plethora of Japanese loanwords from various stages in the evolution of the Japanese language) on the one hand and with the Nivkhs on the other.

For example:

Ainu amam or si(y)amam ("rice; cereal, grain") vs. Japanese mama or mamma ("cooked rice") [/si-/ is an Ainu reflexive ("itself, oneself") or intensive ("real, true; excellent, fine") prefix; Korean uses an identical form as an intensive prefix, while Old Japanese used /sa-/ as an intensive or beautifying prefix and /si-/ as a reflexive pronoun]

Ainu peko ("cow, cattle") vs. Japanese beko ("cow, cattle") [I suppose that cattle must have been introduced into Hokkaido rather recently from Honshu.]

Ainu umma ("horse") vs. Japanese uma ("horse") [Again, an obvious borrowing from Japanese to Ainu.]

Ainu chape ("cat") vs. Japanese dialectal (mostly eastern/northeastern) chape, chappe, champe, chanko, chako, choko, choi, etc. ("cat") [Did cats exist in prehistoric Hokkaido? I assume that they did not, so Ainu chape must have been introduced from eastern Honshu.]

Ainu otchike ("tray") vs. Old Japanese *wor[i]siki > Japanese oshiki ("tray") [Again, certainly a borrowing from Japanese to Ainu.]

Ainu pasuy ("a stick that is used with another to pick up objects or by itself as a sort of magic wand [in a ceremony, etc.], chopsticks") vs. Old Japanese *pasi or *hwasi > Japanese hashi ("chopsticks")

Ebizur said...

Ainu kamuy ("spirit, deity, god; bear; a person who habitually behaves in a certain way") vs. Japanese kamu- ~ kami ("spirit, deity, god")

Ainu ramat ~ ramachi ("soul, spirit; meaning, intent") vs. Japanese tamashii ~ -damashii ("soul, spirit")

Ainu rap ("wing; feather, fletching (of an arrow); (eye)lash"), rapo-rapo ("to fly, to flap the wings") vs. Japanese tubasa > tsubasa ("wings"), tob(-u) ("to fly; to jump; to run at full speed"), teba ("chicken wing (when considered as food)")

Ainu tuki ("a cup, especially one with which to drink an alcoholic beverage") vs. Old Japanese *sakaduki > Japanese sakazuki ("a vessel from which to drink an alcoholic beverage") vs. Korean doŋhɔy > doŋi ("a kind of ceramic vessel used mainly for drawing water")

Ainu tono ("lord, governor" vs. Japanese tono ~ -dono ("lord; Mr., sir; domicile of a powerful or wealthy person, palace")

Ainu puri ("custom, manner") vs. Japanese furi ("pretense, airs") ~ -buri ("style of song or music; manner")

Ainu nispa ("rich person; master; Mr., sir") vs. Japanese nushi ~ nishi ~ noshi ("master; animal or spirit that has inhabited a place for a very long time; Mr., sir; thou, you") vs. Korean *nirim > nim ("title of respect for a teacher, etc.")

There are also plenty of similarities with Nivkh that reveal linguistic contacts of varying antiquity. The mtDNA haplotypes that have been reported from samples of modern Ainus or from samples of human remains from prehistoric sites on Hokkaido seem to be shared either with Japanese-Ryukyuans on the one hand (M7a, various sorts of D, N9b, etc.) or with Nivkhs and Chukotko-Kamchatkans on the other (Y1, G, etc.), but mtDNA haplogroups G and Y are also found with varying frequency among Japanese in general, and I am unsure whether the type(s) of haplogroup G found in Ainus or in prehistoric samples from Hokkaido are more similar to those found in Japanese or to those found in circum-Okhotsk populations.

Besides the linguistic and other cultural elements shared in common between either Ainus and Japanese or Ainus and Nivkhs, there are records dating back hundreds of years that attest to actual genetic exchange between Japanese and Ainus. I do not know of any historical evidence of genetic mixture between Nivkhs and Ainus, but I suppose that this might have occurred at least on Sakhalin. The claim that no extant Ainus, practically all of whom have been assimilated in various ways to the mainstream Japanese population, carry subclades of K-M9 Y-DNA that occur frequently among Japanese and Nivkhs stretches the bounds of credulity to the breaking point.

Natsuya said...

Thanks for the tips on the links, Maju.

Natsuya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Natsuya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Natsuya said...

Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of Jomon Skeletons Fromthe Funadomari Site, Hokkaido, and Its Implication forthe Origins of Native American

The whole paper is here.

Natsuya said...

There's clear Siberian mtDNA infux into Ainu people, such as Hg Y, which possibly came to northern Japan with Y-DNA Hg C3.

Table 4 from Adachi et al.

Natsuya said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Maju said...

Not sure what's your exact point of contention, Ebizur, but some of those loanwords into Ainu sound quite interestingly IE-like, specially after you consider both forms.

The most striking one is of course:

"Ainu peko ("cow, cattle") vs. Japanese beko ("cow, cattle")"

Compare with lat. 'pecus' (cattle), from where pecuniary, etc., which I think it's very close to the ancestral PIE form.

I would not have surely notice without the Ainu word, that, yes, must derive from the Japanese, but it's clearly closer to the word in IE.

"Did cats exist in prehistoric Hokkaido?"

No. They spread in late Prehistory from Egypt and surroundings. In West Euriasia the usual word is almost invariably something like 'kat', 'qit', 'chat', resembling Jap. 'chako' (more than the other dialectal versions).

"Ainu rap ("wing; feather, fletching (of an arrow); (eye)lash"), rapo-rapo ("to fly, to flap the wings") vs. Japanese tubasa > tsubasa ("wings"), tob(-u) ("to fly; to jump; to run at full speed"), teba ("chicken wing (when considered as food)")"

This one I don't see any connection whatsoever.

I do see the other borrowings, though non-Neolithic words might perfectly have migrated from Ainu to Japanese, right?

"Japanese tono ~ -dono ("lord; Mr., sir; domicile of a powerful or wealthy person, palace")"

Again compare with Latin domus (house, home) and dominus (lord, sir, master). Notice that I'm not in favor of macro-Altaic nor Nostratic, but these specific words do seem to have traveled somewhat, right?



"The claim that no extant Ainus, practically all of whom have been assimilated in various ways to the mainstream Japanese population, carry subclades of K-M9 Y-DNA that occur frequently among Japanese and Nivkhs stretches the bounds of credulity to the breaking point".

It's possible but it does look like K-derivatives were not part of the original Ainu Y-DNA stock, right? (I'm taking your own posted data as reference).

Maju said...

Natsuya: I removed one duplicated comment from you (guess it's alright, right?)

I have not much time to analyze the interesting paper you contributed but my first impression is that B and D(xD1) may have arrived to Ainu from the south, while M7a seems rather pre-Yayoi.

N9 (Y, N9b) and G1 would seem specific from the NE Asian gene pool (Okhotsk people?)

Ebizur said...

Maju said,

"N9 (Y, N9b) and G1 would seem specific from the NE Asian gene pool (Okhotsk people?)"

Y1 and G1 have been found fairly frequently among Tungusic peoples of the Amur region, Nivkhs of Sakhalin Island, and Koryaks and Itelmens of Kamchatka. I vaguely recall reading someone's claim that Kamchatka (or was it NE Siberia in its entirety?) has been almost completely resettled in post-Neolithic times by people originating from the Amur region (or from the same region as the ancestors of the modern Tungusic-speaking inhabitants of the Amur region have originated). Anyway, it seems likely that the modern Ainu population has been influenced by a population expansion that also has left descendants in the Tungusic peoples (or at least those of the Amur River Basin), Nivkhs, Koryaks, and Itelmens. All these populations exhibit Y-DNA haplogroup C3 (often including its subclade C3c) with high frequency. They do not carry Y-DNA haplogroup DE-YAP.

On the other hand, mtDNA haplogroup Y2 has been found most frequently among Austronesian speakers of Maritime Southeast Asia and Taiwan, though it also has been detected in Japan, Korea, and Greater Mongolia (i.e. Mongolia plus Buryatia, etc.). Mongols and Koreans have significant amounts of C3 Y-DNA, as the bearers of mtDNA haplogroup Y1 in the Amur basin, Kamchatka, Sakhalin, and Hokkaido have, but C3-M217 is rare in most parts of Japan, Taiwan aborigines, and Maritime Southeast Asia. Hmm...

According to published data, the other half (roughly) of the Ainu gene pool, including Y-DNA haplogroup D2, mtDNA haplogroup M7a, and mtDNA haplogroup D4, appears to exhibit affinity with people of other parts of the Japanese Archipelago and, to a lesser extent, the Korean Peninsula. Someone should be trying to determine whether the sharing among Ainus, Japanese, and Koreans is at a phylogenetically ancient level (and thus a trace of the early Palaeolithic settlement of the Korean Peninsula and the Japanese Archipelago) or rather more recent, which would suggest that there has been a migration from the Japanese Archipelago to the Korean Peninsula or from the Korean Peninsula to the Japanese Archipelago (and eventually all the way to the Ainus in Hokkaido) prior to an influence on Korea of populations from China or southern Manchuria. The italicized part is required by the fact that, according to published data, Ainus do not share the (tangentially West Eurasian-related) Y-DNA MNOPS (N, O, and P subclades in this case) and mtDNA R (F, B, etc.) clades that are common among modern populations of China, Korea, and most parts of Japan.

Ebizur said...

Maju said,

"This one I don't see any connection whatsoever."

Perhaps that may be due to your ignorance. Some dialects of the Ainu language that historically have been spoken on Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands have /t/ instead of /r/ in such words (e.g. /te/ "three" instead of /re/ "three"). In the case of Ainu, /r/ is phonetically like Japanese /r/ (an alveolar flap) and very different from English /r/. Ainu and Japanese /r/ is phonotactically closely associated with [d] and [t].

In this connection, also cf. Ainu rep ("the offing, deep water, out in the sea") vs. Japanese *topo > too ("far, distant"), Ainu ram ("heart, soul; understanding, comprehension") vs. archaic/fossilized Japanese tama ~ -dama ("soul; imbued spirit; deep meaning," as in kotodama "the magical power of a word or words, linguistic mysticism," hitodama "a kind of ghost, an apparition that is considered to be the disembodied spirit of a person"), etc. It is by no means odd to suppose that there might be a relationship (through borrowing or otherwise) between an Ainu morpheme that begins with /r/ and a Japanese morpheme that begins with /t/ or /d/.

And what about Ainu sippo ("salt") vs. Proto-Japanese *sipo > Modern Japanese shio ("salt")? Could this be a coincidental resemblance? If it is not coincidental, why would either group have borrowed such a seemingly basic piece of vocabulary from the other without any genetic interaction?

terryt said...

"This map (a mere generalistic C frequency map) does not serve that purpose, so building your conclusions upon it is a waste of time (for you and me)".

So the authors were completely wasting their time compiling it? Whatever, Y-hap C has a surprising gap between South and SE Asia no matter how you contrive to look at its distribution. Unless you're going to claim that, like CF*, it has been completely replaced through Eastern India and the region of SE Asia occpied by Tibeto-Burman speakers.

"Why C*? Shouldn't it be a more distinct (fixated) clade? Why is it present also in South Asia?"

If you'd actually considered what I was replying to, instead of just trying to reinforce your own preconceptions, you would have noticed I was refering to your comment, 'However one thing this paper evidences is that there's a lot of C3* (up to 30% in some cases) in South and East Asia, so maybe we still have something to learn in this regard'. So I was refering to C3, not C*.

"Of all top level descendants of F, F1, F2, F3 (?), F4 and much F*, as well as H, are South Asian. The rest (IJK, G, F2 and some F* are distributed around it and in the IJK case also in it)".

Yes. It Y-hap F is spread from the Caucasus through Anatolia and Iran to South Asia, and ultimately into SE Asia. So it's seems extremely likely that F moved into India already as F*. But C*'s distribution is nothing like F's. Your comment 'Based on that it's likely that CF coalesced in South Asia or at the OOA migratory route between Africa and South Asia'. The second option is more likely to be the correct one. So why do you assume than CF was the haplogroup that moved into India? Or Y-hap CDEF?

"I do not think C3* among Ainu is derived from mainland Japanese. If C3* is from Japanese, we should more Hg O, but there's no Hg O among Ainu people".

Indicating that O's expansion is relatively recent.

"Ainu people are a mixed population between ancient Jomons of northern Japan and ancient Okhotsk people coming from Siberia".

And probably more than just those two groups. As Ebizur seems to have demonstrated.

"Whatever the case, they talk of a period of flows and back-flows between South and SE Asia before demic pressure was high enough to stop them altogether"

I suspect that 'demic pressure' never stops flow altogether. And furthermore I suspect that periods of 'flows and back-flows' have been part of our evolution since before Homo erectus/Homo habilis first left Africa. The new research concerning Neanderthal admixture offers evidence in support of this idea.

"On the other hand, mtDNA haplogroup Y2 has been found most frequently among Austronesian speakers of Maritime Southeast Asia and Taiwan, though it also has been detected in Japan, Korea, and Greater Mongolia (i.e. Mongolia plus Buryatia, etc.)".

That may provide support for some archeological evidence that suggests the microlithic of SE Asia (that gave rise to the Austronesian expansion) was introduced from Japan.

"Ainu and Japanese /r/ is phonotactically closely associated with [d] and [t]".

As it is in Maori.

Natsuya said...

To Maju:

Sure it's OK, BTW, cat in Japanese should be "neko" (猫,ねこ), not "chako".

I do generally agree with you on the origins of Ainu mtDNA.

Natsuya said...

To Ebizur:

As what I saw before, Hokkaido Ainu do have mtDNA Hg B and F.

http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1001/1001252147696ae9eab1f17bb6.png

In the table of mtDNA frequencies:

1st: modern mainland Japanese

3rd: Kanto Jomon (eastern Japan)

4th: Hokkaido Ainu

Natsuya said...

http://konglong.5d6d.com/userdirs/8/6/konglong/attachments/month_1002/100203153390fc2f24f3177636.png

Very low Hg B found in Ainu possibly came from both the north and the south.

Ebizur said...

Natsuya, neko is the modern Standard Japanese word for "cat." Various traditional dialects spoken mostly by people in eastern Honshu have chappe, chanko, choi, etc. instead of (or in addition to) standard neko.

As for mtDNA haplogroups B and F in Ainus, I think each of these haplogroups has been reported for perhaps one individual among all the Ainus whose mtDNA has been tested for published studies. Singletons of this sort could easily be due to recent Japanese influence, for example, though Shinoda et al. have reported finding haplogroup B in 4/54 = 7.4% of a sample of human remains from a Jomon site in the Kanto region of southeastern Honshu and Sato et al. 2007 have reported finding haplogroup B in 2/37 = 5.4% of a sample of human remains associated with the Okhotsk culture according to Table 4 of that paper by Adachi et al. In any case, mtDNA haplogroups B and F (and R derivatives in general) seem to be much more common among the major populations of East Asia and Southeast Asia than among modern Ainu people.

I notice that, in addition to sharing mtDNA haplogroup G1 with Tungusic peoples, Nivkhs, and Chukotko-Kamchatkans, Ainus also share mtDNA haplogroup G2a1 with Japanese, Koreans, Mansis, Tuvinians, and various populations of China and Central Asia according to Tanaka et al. 2004.

Maju said...

"They do not carry Y-DNA haplogroup DE-YAP".

It may be less important because Y-DNA is more easy to become fixated in any random clade, specially among small subarctic populations.

"On the other hand, mtDNA haplogroup Y2 has been found most frequently among Austronesian speakers of Maritime Southeast Asia and Taiwan".

Doesn't this remind the division of N9a and N9b?

"In the case of Ainu, /r/ is phonetically like Japanese /r/ (an alveolar flap) and very different from English /r/".

Fair enough.

Though I must say that IPA's /r/ is neither one nor the other but an alveolar thrill, very extended through the World and extremely common in Basque, as well as Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Portuguese, Russian, Albanian, Arabic, Finnish, etc. Among English speakers only Scots and maybe Welsh seem to pronounce the letter R in this way.