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Same as in previous post - see for macro-haplogroup N(xR) and root of R itself.
Notes:
- · R5 and R31 are also South Asian and the node joining them with F and Melanesian R* could well have been in South Asia too. I just run out of space in the map.
- · B is the only R-derived clade found in Native America (not shown).
- · U has some offshots in South Asia (notably U2, also U7 but shared with West Eurasia) but it's mostly a West Eurasian clade anyhow. Haplogroup K is a subclade of U8 (in turn a subclade of U) and therefore it's not shown either.
- · R0 is also known as pre-HV.
10 comments:
Great map, Maju! I guess HV*/Pre-HV* are observed in South India. How would you think these matrilineages might have spread? F*/R* to West and K* to East?
Hi, Mr. Cryptic. ;)
Thanks for the compliments. Hopefully I'll have other maps, beginning with that of M soon.
I'll see what I can find about HV*/R0* in India. You guys have so many haplogroups that I can't recall that now. Can you source it?
How would you think these matrilineages might have spread? F*/R* to West and K* to East?
I understand that you mean Y-DNA F and K, and mtDNA R, right?
The more I look at it the more I see a possible single multidirectional expansion with all the large clades spawning from South Asia (or SE Asia arguably in some cases maybe).
I think we discussed this at Quetzacoatl long ago. I mean Ren and I discussed it mainly: I was thinking then in simplistic terms of one clade = one migration (roughly) and Ren (and maybe Ibra too?) argued that all major clades should have coalesced in South Asia after the OOA event and spread around from there.
Nowadays I think like that too. They persuaded me.
Still Y-DNA F might have got a westernmost core area, maybe Sindh or Punjab or even southern Iran (near Hormuz?) because most subclades are in India (H) or west of it. Only K has a wider distribution.
So, yes, surely the original migration to West Asia included F subclades (IJ and G, and surely that F-something found in Netherlands, F4?) and R subclades (U, HV/R0 and JT) - even if maybe in their early undefined stages.
But there are other elements that could have taken part in that migration: mtDNA M1 and Y-DNA T (former K2). They also have a Western distribution exclusively, so they surely joined the aforementioned clades in their journey west.
As for Y-DNA K, I suspect it coalesced and divide at the Ganges, after following the Narmada-Son route. Some clades joined C and D in the route eastward and others went westward: the already mentioned T, L (that did not go far) and P that surely adventured into Central Asia where it coalesced into the derived clades (Q, R2, R1), that branched out succesively via founder effects.
That's all I can say so far. I have already drawn a nice map of Y-DNA likely spread but I have to retouch, maybe redraw it. I'll probably post it soon too.
Ian Logan's page mentions the following South Asian HV*/R0 cases:
- 1 R0 in Pakistan
- 1 R0 in India
- 1 R0 among the Kalash (Pakistan)
- 1 R0 in "Asia" (where?)
No HV east of Iran apparently.
Considering that there are many more R0 (pre-HV) in West Asia (where is very important specially among peninsular Arabs) and Europe, and even one in Africa, I'd rather think of them as back-migration products. But with due caution, of course.
For HV, he clearly locates two HV1 in Italy and one HV* in Poland but following known research I'd think HV coalesced in West Asia, not in Europe. H and V instead apparently coalesced in Western Europe, as has been published once and again.
Maju. For an atheist that sounds remarkably like the Garden of Eden scenario! Do you really believe that there was no movement of men or women around the world from when modern humans first came out of Africa and when mtDNA R and Y-chromosome K broke into their descendant clades?
I don't believe anything, Terry. I just see what we all can see and get to the simplest possible conclussions (Occam's Razor).
Part of the transition might have happened in Arabia anyhow, before reaching India, but, as this area is quite arid, it could never support large populations, so the big expansion only happened once in South Asia.
I think (best guess) that the genetic lineages that arived to South Asia were mtDNA M and N and Y-DNA CF and D (or C, F and D). It's not a large ammount of clades and a rather small population could have carried them for a while.
Once in larger and richer South Asia, these clades had more room to expand and hence soon coalesced into new subclades here and there. Soon after they moved to the rest of Asia and to Sahul.
Most important among these new, second level, clades were mtDNA R and Y-DNA K, their peculiar success may have been driven by some sort of innovation or fortune among their carriers but it's difficult, maybe impossible, to discern what was it, specially because they are not well coupled with each other. I don't see any clear hint that they might represent a second wave over the other clades in any case.
I don't know why you make that analogy with "the Garden of Eden" but certainly populations don't typically emigrate unless they have a need to do so. Like with a nuclear bomb, it requires some critical mass to make it explode. And reaching that critical mass surely took some time, even in the best of possible conditions.
But the spread was also quite fast anyhow. Just that some time of localized expansion and diversification in South Asia must be allowed for, I think.
You have three "moments":
1. African to Eurasian (L3->M,N; CT->C,D,F)
2. First diversification in South Asia (or "suburbs" maybe for some clades)
3. Secondary diversifications in all Eurasian regions. The early phase of this step in South Asia overlaps with the previous most probably.
Another possibility could be a Toba-caused bottleneck in South Asia, delaying the expansion. This in case that the early OOA episode is older than normally thought.
You write too much. I'll read them at my leisure. The paper is Palanichamy et al.(2004)."Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup N in India, Based on Complete Sequencing: Implications for the Peopling of South Asia". Four Telugus carry HV* (3-Reddy, 1-Togataveera, Dravidian castes).
Another paper, "Phylogeography of Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Haplogroups Reveal Asymmetric Gene Flow in Populations of Eastern India", Sahoo et al.(2006)
Paroja (Dravidian tribe) HV -1, pHV-1.
You write too much.
Sure I do. There must be some ideal intermediate position, right?
The paper is Palanichamy et al.(2004)."Phylogeny of Mitochondrial DNA Macrohaplogroup N in India, Based on Complete Sequencing: Implications for the Peopling of South Asia". Four Telugus carry HV* (3-Reddy, 1-Togataveera, Dravidian castes).
Very much thank you, Manju, it's an important paper I had overlooked/forgotten about. They still place pre-HV (and therefore HV) as a Western Eurasian haplogroup in their synthetic figure 2, so guess I don't need to make any major changes to the map.
The philogenetic tree for R and N2 (that I presume is the same as the "Indian N*" of my map and Logan's database - will check at some other moment) is different (no shared basal mutations). Same for X and N1. Wonder when some standarization will be made for the mtDNA tree, like happened with the Y-DNA one some 6 or 7 years ago.
What do you think about Paroja ( a remote Dravidian tribe) showing HV*, pHV*? What would be the probability that it received those matrilineages from outside? The common sense tells us matrilineages may move from natives to outsiders, rarely the other way round. Mainly because of lack of matrilineages that the outsiders bring. In this case, HV* and pHV* are even negligible in India. Unless it's a mistake from the geneticists we can't ignore that.
I think your map should shift from India to Pakistan. If you consider movements to West and East from India, it has to be Pakistan around 50000ybp.
What do you think about Paroja ( a remote Dravidian tribe) showing HV*, pHV*? What would be the probability that it received those matrilineages from outside?
Well, being a tribe, the entire tribe (men and women) may have migrated as such in old times. Tribes often also admit newcomers more easily than castes, right? Finnaly (less likely but must be mentioned) they could even have captured the women in some conflict.
Still, I have yet to understand completely the small print in the structure and geography of HV and R0. Even if their ultimate origin was in South Asia, they must have migrated westward very soon, so the difference is not that relevant anyhow.
In Ian Logan's site, all located HV clades are from Europe. Yet Abu-Amero mentions some 2.4% "HV/R" is Saudi Arabia and, from memory, I know the haplogroup has also been located with rather high fequency in the Fertile Crescent and is generally assumed it coalesced there.
For pre-HV/R0, Logan has most located samples in Saudi Arabia (Abu-Amero, that detects 17.7% in his country) and then the handful of cases in Pakistan, India and "Asia" (four in total) and a couple of them also in Italy.
I think that estimating a West Asian coalescence for both clades is not making any risky claim nor "Eurocentric". It's rather a reasonable conclusion on light of available data and studies.
I think your map should shift from India to Pakistan. If you consider movements to West and East from India, it has to be Pakistan around 50000ybp.
Why? Pakistan is very far away from SE Asia and Australia. I think the Ganges area has a more central position. Anything moving from Pakistan to SE Asia and Australia must have gone through northern India (or the whole coastal route). Of course, anything going from the Ganges to West or Central Asia must have gone through Pakistan as well, so it's more like northern South Asia as a whole acting as corridor and/or center of the fanning out.
I don't see any indication that both regions (Indus and Ganges) harbored different populations, at least in what regards to K and R.
I know that the Thar desert has been postulated as a barrier but the archaeological fact is that it was inhabited too, at least partly, so maybe rather not. Maybe this "anomaly" is because the first colonists were already used to desertic and semi-desertic enviroments, that are dominant in NW Africa and peninsular Arabia.
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