tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post4995753028424546548..comments2023-05-15T07:11:30.874+02:00Comments on Leherensuge: Reviewing the mtDNA L lineages (notes): L3, L4 and L6Majuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-22811737584224022082021-06-07T04:17:43.471+02:002021-06-07T04:17:43.471+02:00Y'DNA J and T didn't came to North Afri...Y'DNA J and T didn't came to North Africa 50Kya Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14937843925594650329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-34636466409169706342017-08-03T09:06:47.443+02:002017-08-03T09:06:47.443+02:00My mtdna is L4b1a. Is this out of Yemen or Ethiopi...My mtdna is L4b1a. Is this out of Yemen or Ethiopia?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12257500348600504213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-11800267659159345782013-11-04T04:28:56.487+01:002013-11-04T04:28:56.487+01:00Thanks Maju!
It's conversations like these th...Thanks Maju!<br /><br />It's conversations like these that I find the most productive! :-) <br /><br />Saludos! :-)Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-34041215039917855692013-11-03T23:55:29.701+01:002013-11-03T23:55:29.701+01:00All you say here is most interesting. I have of co...All you say here is most interesting. I have of course some doubts about crypto-Jews (the so-called "marranos" in inquisitorial and similar texts) being such an important source of settlers and I have absolutely no idea how many Roma (Gitanos) may have joined the colonial adventure. These last should look genetically distinct from Berbers/Guanches, although Jews may be confused with them on shallow analysis (North Africa and the southern parts of West Asia have significant shared ancestry from very old -Capsian, etc.- but they are also distinct in many aspects). Although not excluding some crypto-Jewish influence in the colonization of Latin America, genetic studies of alleged "Jewish ancestry" populations in Mexico, for example, have clearly dispelled such claims as mythical, so I must be very cautious on this aspect. <br /><br />But all the Canarian link is most interesting. I was unaware of this Tributo de Sangre policy (although there are some that consider it largely a myth: http://www.historiadecanarias.com/canarii/12/el-mito-del-tributo-de-sangre-en-la-emigracion-canaria) but what seems quite clear by now is that Canarias was one of the most important sources of colonial settlers, very especially in the "less important" Caribbean islands. <br /><br />Thanks a lot for this insight. I will right away comment in the other entry I linked to (at my "new" blog "For what they were...", this one was closed in Oct. 2010) because the insight you provide here is very helpful, really. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-76695713339770852742013-11-03T23:22:26.527+01:002013-11-03T23:22:26.527+01:00I compared my Great maternal grandma Lola (middle)...I compared my Great maternal grandma Lola (middle) to a Canarian Cuban (left) and a Guanche mummy (right). I must say that their phenotypes are indeed very similar:<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JIczhueGY1a19YT2M/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />I also compared my maternal grandma (right) to a Canarian Guanche playing a Guanche princess in a documentary (left):<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JIcnRYYVZtRzg2N1k/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />Finally there is me (left) compared to a sketch of a Guanche completed in the 1500's (right). I would say we look quite alike!<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JITy1LbkMyRnFiSzQ/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />I have done this on both sides of the maternal family. It seems we are a Guanche (female side) Iberian (male side) mix for the most part, with Tropical African and Native American admixture. :-) Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-68391032945343634882013-11-03T22:47:30.867+01:002013-11-03T22:47:30.867+01:00Unlike the 'Peninsulares' that came to the...Unlike the 'Peninsulares' that came to the Islands mainly to do business and then go back to Spain, the 'Isleños' tended to stay and set roots on the Island:<br /><br /> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmRIxmMxY6cCharleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-8523696318901125982013-11-03T22:41:05.337+01:002013-11-03T22:41:05.337+01:00I also agree with what you said that populations s...I also agree with what you said that populations such as the North West Africans, the Jews and the Roma need to be included to better understand the Caribbean mix. For example, my grandma shows up with a whopping ten percent Hungarian! The only way I can explain that is that my great grandfather Daniel (Who looks precisely like a Hungarian Roma!)Must've been a descendant of the Spanish Roma (Which were called 'húngaros' by the Spaniards themselves!).<br /><br />That would also explain why my grandma has over 80 distant genetic cousins that are ashkenazi jewish! How else to explain that except Jews fleeing the Spanish inquisition both to the Canaries (sephardics) and to Eastern Europe (sephardics mixing with ashkenazi)?Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-57190119807063278242013-11-03T22:21:46.173+01:002013-11-03T22:21:46.173+01:00The fact is also that Puerto Rico never played a m...The fact is also that Puerto Rico never played a mayor roll in the slave trade. For example, most of the African slaves ended up in Brazil! In Cuba, for every white European you had on the Island, there were 9 Tropical Africans! This is why the culture, language, religions and customs of the tropical Africans survived so well! Most of the Cubans that made it to Florida after the take over of Castro were in fact of White Canarian descent; because they had the money and the means to leave Cuba! :-) <br /><br />Puerto Rico suffered a century long recession in the 1600's that did not enable it to have the economy needed to even need to import much slave labor. So the Bourbon policies of the early 1700's via the Tributo de Sangre were an attempt to revitalize the economy with 'peones' and/or salaried workers if you will. This set the tone for the influx of the 19th century and the abolition of slavery on the Island in the late 1870's. Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-22235078032308240342013-11-03T22:11:37.116+01:002013-11-03T22:11:37.116+01:00When you look phenotypically at the Puerto Ricans,...When you look phenotypically at the Puerto Ricans, they come across mainly as an Iberian-Berber mix with Native American (the Spanish killed off most Native men and kept the Woman for marriage; over 60% by genetic estimates.) and Some African Woman (The Atlantic slave trade favored MEN two to one unlike the Transaharan slave trade. Only like 16% of the mitochondria found in Puerto Rico is attributable to Tropical Africa; and a substantial part of those African mitochondria can just as well be North African, since there are substantial amounts of those in North Africa as well.)<br /><br />My Great Great Grandma María Fonseca was said to be blonde and blue eyed. My family favored recessive traits (As most Canarians typically did on the Island.). And like the Guanche, there were direct maternal descendants that grew up with blonde hair such as my cousin Janet and My Great Uncle 'El Cano':<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JIcFVvdlNoQmRjeWc/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JIVkx6UHpPdmdsMG8/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />It's the kind of blonde hair that turns brown as an adult. Certainly not the trait of a Tropical African and it's rare in Latin America to have blondes at all! :-) Plus my family had hazel, blue, and amber eyes (I have amber colored eyes). So genetically, genealogically and phenotypically, my family looks far more like Canarian Guanche Iberian mix than they do Tropical African. :-) <br /><br />So yea. I agree. It is a complex situation. That's why each person needs to do their own research and draw their own conclusions based on that research. :-)<br /><br />I think, in the end, I think the Spanish saw the Canarians the same way the English saw the Irish and Scots (since I am of English descent on my father's side, I have an interesting perspective on that!). The Canarians were convenient and served as convenient pawns as you say to keep the empire well lubricated. They were in some ways like indentured servants. But the Spanish never had the same kind of iron fist policies the English had! Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-81810358372610462972013-11-03T22:08:47.592+01:002013-11-03T22:08:47.592+01:00Yes. I have to agree with that suggestion. The fac...Yes. I have to agree with that suggestion. The fact is that my ancestors in the 19th century had titles of Don and Doña in caps in church documents. In Spanish imperial times that could only mean two things: either they were wealthy or they were of noble descent. My maternal ancestors in the 19th century were not wealthy and were documented as 'blanco' on the church documents (there were separate listings for the 'blancos'and the 'negros y mulatos' back then):<br /><br />http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/u/r/Luis-R-Burset/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-1285.html<br /><br />So this led me to the Díaz line on Tenerife. They were one of only two noble Guanche families 'que hicieron las paces' with the Spanish crown. This coincides with my great grandma's story of descending from an indigenous princess being raped by a Spaniard, since that seems to be precisely what happened to Pelinor's daughter in the 1490's shortly after the conquest. I obtained that information here:<br /><br />http://mdc.ulpgc.es/cdm/fullbrowser/collection/aea/id/1704/rv/singleitem<br /><br />I can trace my direct maternal lineage in Puerto Rico to the 1700's Bayamón and the Toas, which were founded by Canarian immigrants. They took to the hills quickly to grow coffee and tobacco (And to avoid mixing with outsiders; since they were very clannish people!). This is where my ancestors were located for centuries: hilly country. Hilly country in Puerto Rico was dominated by the white peasants while the low lands were dominated by the Spanish (metro areas), the blacks and mulatos (beach and urban areas like Río Piedras and Santurce) and the mestizos (The few male Native Americans that survived the 'conquista' mainly in the cave systems to the west of the Islands; far from the metro areas). The elite families also lived to the western part of the island. These little details do matter! :-)<br /><br />It seems that my ancestors came as a consequence of the Tributo de Sangre. The Tibuto de Sangre was a forced migrational policy designed to fill depopulated parts of the Empire that were vulnerable to conquest by foreign powers. It was also designed as a 'válvula de escape' to decrease social unrest in the Canaries. It also served the purpose to try to make the colonies more profitable to the Crown (since they extracted all the gold they could by then!):<br /><br />http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributo_de_sangre<br /><br />Most that came from this Spanish policy came to Puerto Rico between 1720 and 1730. Unfortunately there are only estimates of how many families came (perhaps the documentation was eaten up by book worms! :-) ) It wasn't until the Cédula de Gracia in the early 1800's that you finally began to see a huge European influx into the Island (mainly do to the elite of other former colonies finding refuge in the last Spanish holdings in Latin America: Cuba and Puerto Rico). <br /><br />Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-80824840070008900042013-11-03T13:44:26.019+01:002013-11-03T13:44:26.019+01:00Something that is quite intriguing and may interes...Something that is quite intriguing and may interest you are the results of Moreno Estrada 2013:<br /><br />http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/06/caribbean-autosomal-ancestry.html<br /><br />The intriguing matter is that the "European" ancestry in modern Caribbean peoples is "unnaturally" or counter-intuitively dominated by a component (black) that seems vaguely "Mediterranean" but that is nowhere in Europe as dominant at all as in the Caribbean (relatively to the other European component, red in fig. S2 or red and pink in fig. 1). Since I read that, I'm wondering what kind of founder effect that may represent and so far my best guess is that it is not really pointing to Europe but to North Africa (possibly, not sampled in that paper). However mainland North Africa was certainly not any major origin of Caribbean Criollos, so I wonder: were the Canary Islands the source of the vast majority of Spanish settlers? <br /><br />On first sight one would think it very unlikely but we know only so much of the "little history" of Canarias back then. We know that the Pope repeatedly issued bulls against the enslaving of Christian Guanches, what was unheeded by the Portuguese repeatedly and undoubtedly played in favor of Castilian final conquest. Castile, much like Portugal, was not any such nest of willing settlers for overseas. There were some adventurers in search of gold and glory but where did all the common people come from? It's generally accepted by default that from the Peninsula but how real is that? Could it be that instead of enslaving the Christian Guanches, Castile recruited them as pawns for the settlement of America? <br /><br />There could be other explanations but the anomaly is quite suggestive and at the very least demands deeper research, contrasting with North African samples, as well as regionalized Spanish ones, if we want to clarify this matter. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-84605074402288946422013-11-03T13:17:00.074+01:002013-11-03T13:17:00.074+01:00Congratulations for your findings, Charles. I am a...Congratulations for your findings, Charles. I am a bit perplex about the blue dots on that map that are in the middle of the ocean but I'm not really sure what they mean, so guess it makes sense somehow. <br /><br />"You have been historically open to the possibility that some percentage of L in the Canaries is indigenous to the Islands".<br /><br />Indeed, as is the case in North Africa in general (and also to a lesser extent in Western Iberia - surely an ancient minor flow from North Africa). In my updated understanding of the matter NW Africa was its own very African region by ancestry (Aterian culture, dating surely to the time of the OoA migration, c. 125 Ka ago) until the LGM, when people with Gravetto-Solutrean culture seem to have migrated from SE Iberia and initiated the Oranian culture (AKA Iberomaurusian). The subsequent interaction with the natives must have produced some backflow into Iberia with lesser founder effects in the Western areas (Portugal and Asturias especially but later affecting all the Western third of the peninsula). I am pretty sure, on aDNA studies, that there were some L(xM,N) lineages in Epipaleolithic Portugal and also in Syria, so it's absolutely no wonder that they also existed in North Africa, as Fregel found in fact among ancient Guanches.<br /><br />When some 125-90 Ka ago people migrated out of Africa, they brought with them a variety of African lineages. Most of them did not go far (North Africa and Arabia Peninsula essentially, judging from present day data) and only two L3 variants (M and N) made it to India and beyond, being the ones which experienced a secondary expansion from India and SE Asia and are now the largest by far in numerical terms.<br /><br />As the expanded and rather expansive "Eurasian" population looked for new niches they went to Australia, Siberia and the Western "Neanderlands" (Europe, much of West Asia and all Central Asia) but also back into Africa. As I see it now, this wave back into Africa were actually two: first the c. 50 Ka BP "mode 4" flow into NE Africa (Y-DNA J1 and T mainly, mtDNA M1, X1... trigger of African LSA surely - although it could be the other way around) and later the c. 22 Ka BP wave from Iberia into the NW. The two components are very apparent in autosomal analysis of North Africans, along with some ultra-Saharan blood and, interestingly, what seems to be some "residual" Aterian blood (ultra-aboriginal NW African), with highest frequencies in Southern Morocco. These "Aterians" were certainly not M/N but carried L(xM,N) lineages. <br /><br />Finally the Capsian wave from Egypt/Nubia conformed the last layer on the NW African genetic landscape (although it may have two sublayers: an Epipaleolithic and a Neolithic one). More recent inflows should not account for more than 25% of the ancestry, probably quite less. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-19475144473353243942013-11-03T03:01:50.939+01:002013-11-03T03:01:50.939+01:00I recently completed a Canarian project using SPA ...I recently completed a Canarian project using SPA software developed at UCLA and using the Eurogenes West Eurasian model. I included 30 genomes of pure Canarians, pure Berbers, Iberians, and Canarian diaspora from Cuba, Puerto Rico and Uruguay. My grandmother's genome is the only one that actually touches the Canaries. Not only is she located in the Canaries, but she is also located just one Island due west from Tenerife, where I believe (based on genealogical evidence)she is from. There is another genome that is located just due north and east of her. That genome represents a genetic third cousin that matches all my grandmother's mitchondrial mutations. His mother is Puerto Rican and his father Moroccan. Most Puerto Ricans of white peasant stock are of Canarian descent. This is the map of the thirty genomes. Each blue dot on the map represents a genome: <br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-gtF2Hah8JISmc4STV4a1JXbWs/edit?usp=sharing<br /><br />You have been historically open to the possibility that some percentage of L in the Canaries is indigenous to the Islands: <br /><br />"Maju said...<br />IMO, it's hard to say for sure that the so-called "subsaharan African" mtDNA, that is L(xM,N) is necesarily of recent Tropical origin (i.e. slave trade). These clades are common enough in North Africa as to be considered native from that area or at least estabilished since long ago (possibly Capsian period). <br /><br />In your other post on Tinerfeño aDNA it's said that 15.6% L meant the high importance of slave trade, but now this study on Canarian aborigines also shows a high incidence of L (albeit lower: 7%), what implies that at least a fraction of Canarian L was not directly from Tropical Africa. And this must be also applied to North African L in general." <br /><br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/04/ancient-mtdna-from-la-palma-canary.html<br /><br />The fact is that L in general never stayed in one place. It moved everywhere following the changing climate and the animal herds. And some even broke free from Mother Africa. :-) <br />Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-52883611575602502852013-03-28T06:37:43.109+01:002013-03-28T06:37:43.109+01:00I also just completed a k36 on gedmatch and my gra...I also just completed a k36 on gedmatch and my grandma shows up with 6.46% West Mediterranean. Only pure Spanish and French show up with more than her. Out of the 170+ participants that have participated on a discussion of this particular on 23 and me, only about 6 individuals have more West Mediterranean than my grandma. Two of those are Canarian. One is a maternal L3b from the Cantabrian region. So I definitively have to be open to the possibility that my grandma is a neolithic L3b that acquired her African when her ancestors arrived in the Caribbean. It is this African drift genetic material actually makes her look genetically Berber.Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-69813759938504755482013-03-16T02:24:49.998+01:002013-03-16T02:24:49.998+01:00I also have two more genetic L3b1a 3rd cousins tha...I also have two more genetic L3b1a 3rd cousins that do not match our mitochondria perfectly, but have all the 3 key Sayago L3b mutations. They too are from Puerto Rico. I have a third that matches all 3 key mutations. The third is a distant cousin at best. So I have a statistical sample of 5 L3b1a samples so far; which is statistically significant. So I seem to come from a cluster of L3b's that may have left that area of Sayago in the 1600's to seek better opportunities elsewhere. <br /><br />At any rate, it has been a pleasure to debate with you. :-)Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-66925820238147559042013-03-15T22:07:56.503+01:002013-03-15T22:07:56.503+01:00I enjoy sharing what I have learned along the year...I enjoy sharing what I have learned along the years. My pleasure. <br /><br />Anyhow, consider also that I'm pretty sure of having located L3(xM,N), most likely L3d, in a sample from Epipaleolithic Portugal, sequenced by Chandler, Sykes & Zilhao 2005 but then described as N* (quite wrongly in my opinion). See my <a href="http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html" rel="nofollow">ancient mtDNA maps of Europe page</a>.<br /><br />Also in a recent study on L(xM,N) lineages in Europe (not sure if I mentioned before - see <a href="http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/claim-that-many-african-matrilineages.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>), the authors conclude that several L1b sublineages seem to be established in Europe (and particularly in Iberia) since very ancient times. L3d1b1a also looks in this paper as possibly European (only located in Italy). <br /><br />Some L lineages must have been in North Africa and Arabia since the times of the migration out-of-Africa. Therefore there's nothing really strange that some of them have permeated to Europe since time immemorial. <br /><br />However I can't find anything specific about L3b1a, just that L3b makes up 6% of European L(xM,N). <br /><br />Enjoy.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-70728493252780868932013-03-15T20:15:22.760+01:002013-03-15T20:15:22.760+01:00I will give you the benefit of the doubt that the ...I will give you the benefit of the doubt that the L3b in question is neolithic. More research is needed. On the other hand, my L3b not only matches Sayago L3b mutations, but I also have a 3rd cousin on 23 and me that has a maternal L3b that matches all my mitochondrial mutations. His mother is Puerto Rican and his father is Moroccan. He clusters closely with Galicians genetically. And Galicia is right next to the Zamora province. So I am confident that my L3b is closely linked to the Sayago L3b. At any rate, it has been a pleasure to discuss L3 with you. Forgive me if I am passionate about the topic, but keep in mind we are talking about my maternal heritage! :-)Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-8386293473542954972013-03-10T12:21:19.796+01:002013-03-10T12:21:19.796+01:00Typo ">1% on average" should be "...Typo ">1% on average" should be "<1% on average".Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-64950070043401883362013-03-10T12:20:36.282+01:002013-03-10T12:20:36.282+01:00I don't part from that "premise that Iber...I don't part from that "premise that Iberia has never been "stained" by African genetics, except by the pristine and untainted paleolithics". I find, with others, that the genetic legacy of North Africa in Iberia does not fit the Muslim era assumption at all:<br /><br />1. It is concentrated in the Western third of the peninsula and has no S-N nor SE-NW cline whatsoever. <br /><br />2. It lacks important North African lineages, notably Y-DNA J1, which does not reach >3% anywhere (>1% on average, most notable in historically Muslim places: East Andalusia, Portugal, Southern Castile, Valencia and Majorca). <br /><br />Of course the Muslim invasion left some genetic legacy, but it is minimal and concentrated in the Y-DNA side and in the regions where one would expect to find it (the South essentially). <br /><br />But E1b-M81 (and other E1b) is instead concentrated in the Western Third, especially: West Andalusia (10%+5%), León region (10%+8%), Extremadura (8%+8%), Galicia (9%+8%), South Portugal (8%+7%). Also notable in the "other E1b" category are Asturias (a Christian stronghold) with 0% M81 but 15% other E1b and North Portugal with 3% M81 but 7% other E1b. <br /><br />This "other E1b" is not too common in North Africa (10%) but, for what I have been told, is only exceptionally the Balcanic-Neolithic E-V13, so it may well correspond to some other and/or very ancient migration within E1b in general, which spilled over to the Western third of Iberia. Whether this ancient migrations are Neolithic or Paleolithic (Solutrean-Oranian interactions which probably also originated the 30% SW European mtDNA, H and V, in NW Africa) I can't say for sure. Maybe both but certainly only limitedly post-Neolithic. <br /><br />The Pamplona cemetery data is very interesting, thanks, but it does not indicate that those people (surely soldiers, Pamplona was Muslim-occupied only between 715-755, plus a brief interlude later on 778-799, caused by Charlemagne's destruction of the city walls before the First Battle of Roncevaux Pass) had any significant impact in the modern genetic pool. Considering that the Muslim occupation and emphasis was in the South (Andalusia) and East (Valencia, Zaragoza, Majorca), it is totally inconsistent with the relative lack of E1b-M81, the most dominant North African patrilineage by far (54%, 62% in Morocco - but only 2% in East Andalusia, 4% in Valencia, 2% in Majorca and 3% in Aragon). <br /><br />Main ref. Adams 2008 (especially fig. 1): http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-92188531225702190072013-03-10T06:06:07.441+01:002013-03-10T06:06:07.441+01:00If you part from the premise that Iberia has never...If you part from the premise that Iberia has never been "stained" by African genetics, except by the pristine and untainted paleolithics, then all evidence will point to you in this direction. The work presented to you gives indication that the Genetic markers they found may be indicative of a North African Berber presence in the region. <br /><br />Here is the evidence of Berber L's in Pamplona. It shows that the Islamic advanced and colonized areas as far north as Basque land. I understand that the Spanish have been trying to white wash their history for centuries in order to feel more European, but the evidence is there and should be taken objectively without cultural prejudice. <br /><br />Nº: 88<br />Tema: Diversidad Genética de Poblaciones Humanas<br />Tipo de presentación: Póster<br />Título: Variabilidad genética de la población adulta de la Maqbara de Pamplona (Navarra s. <br />VIII)<br />Autores: Fontecha L, Hervella M, López S, Alonso S, Izagirre N, de la Rúa C<br />Institución: Universidad del País Vasco (UPV/EHU), Facultad de Ciencia y Tecnología. <br />Departamento de Genética, Antropología Física y Fisiología Animal; 48080 Bilbao, Spain.<br />Contacto: Lara.fontecha@ehu.es<br />Resumen: En la maqbara de la Plaza del Castillo (Pamplona, Navarra) datada en el s. VIII, se <br />han recuperado restos humanos de 167 individuos, 74 de ellos adultos. Con el fin de valorar si <br />la influencia cultural islámica tiene una correspondencia a nivel biológico, se ha recuperado el <br />ADN de 66 individuos adultos, realizándose además el análisis por duplicado de todos ellos. Se <br />ha analizado la secuencia del HVR-I y la posición nucleotídica 73 de la HVR-II, así como la <br />determinación de algunos SNPs de la región codificante. En algunos casos (CRS), se ha <br />secuenciado además el HVR II con el fin de identificar distintos haplotipos. Los 66 individuos <br />analizados han proporcionado 46 haplotipos diferentes (diversidad genética de 0.7156 ± <br />0.0565). Si bien la mayoría de estos haplotipos mitocondriales son frecuentes en las <br />poblaciones actuales, 12 de ellos son secuencias únicas en la maqbara y 6 haplotipos <br />presentan origen africano (L3b1a, L2b, L3f2, L3f2, L3b1d, L3e2b). En cuanto al cromosoma Y, <br />los primeros datos obtenidos mediante el análisis de SNPs, indican frecuencias relevantes de <br />haplogrupos de origen africano, como el haplogrupo E. Estos resultados sugieren la existencia <br />de flujo génico entre África y el Norte de la Península Ibérica, en una época correspondiente a <br />los primeros años de la conquista islámica. El análisis completo que incluya también a los <br />subadultos, permitirá establecer posibles asimetrías del flujo génico y la interpretación <br />biosocial del grupo humano enterrado en la maqbara de Pamplona.<br />AGRADECIMIENTOS: La investigación contenida en este trabajo, ha sido realizada gracias a la <br />financiación del MCeI (CGL-2004-03300 y GCL-2007-65515) y del Gobierno Vasco (IT453-07 y <br />IT542-10). Además de la concesión de una beca predoctoral del Gobierno Vasco a L. Fontecha <br />(BFI08.33).Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-49398386969489921932013-03-09T12:27:50.649+01:002013-03-09T12:27:50.649+01:00Nope: can't open the poster PDF (it claims it&...Nope: can't open the poster PDF (it claims it's damaged or something). Sorry. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-4456895278184307502013-03-09T12:21:11.025+01:002013-03-09T12:21:11.025+01:00I do not consider those lineages of NW Iberia (not...I do not consider those lineages of NW Iberia (not circumscribed to Zamora but also further North in the Maragatería district of León, etc.) as Muslim. The main reason is precisely that there is not at all any "expected" S-N cline or SE-NW one but in fact the "North African" lineages seem concentrated in the West of Iberia (see <a href="http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2011/04/guest-post-by-argiedude-west-east-y-dna.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> for Y-DNA, but AFAIK mtDNA follows the same pattern), so IMO they are either Neolithic or pre-Neolithic. <br /><br />The mention of which must be the only Berber cemetery in Pamplona ever is puzzling, I admit, but I haven't been able as of now to open the poster, so I can't make any specific criticism. I'm updating my system right now and I'll try after that again. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-19786933320251219392013-03-09T04:25:57.657+01:002013-03-09T04:25:57.657+01:00I recently found this study which found in Zamora ...I recently found this study which found in Zamora a total of four samples of L3b1a. My grandma matches all the mutations they discovered. This region was an early buffer zone and no man's land between Christians and Muslims. Spain, unlike Portugal, does not have much historical records regarding slavery in the region. However, there is a strong North African heritage here. My grandmother does not cluster with Tropical Africans. She clusters with North Africans: http://www.academia.edu/1270087/Mitochondrial_DNA_patterns_in_the_Iberian_Northern_plateau_population_dynamics_and_substructure_of_the_Zamora_province <br /><br />So yes. L3b1a is rare. But it isnot impossible to find! L samples were also found in a Berber 8th century necropolis in Pamplona Spain (page 29): <br /><br />http://www.seaf.net/xviicongreso/Posters.pdfCharleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-32832094533405993242012-08-30T00:45:11.526+02:002012-08-30T00:45:11.526+02:00"Most of my L3b1a matches in FTDNA are Hispan..."Most of my L3b1a matches in FTDNA are Hispanic and can trace their roots to Spain."<br /><br />Fair enough.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-18165452605385481422012-08-29T20:10:46.344+02:002012-08-29T20:10:46.344+02:00You all the time confuse both things: mtDNA and Y-...You all the time confuse both things: mtDNA and Y-DNA lineages are persistent, they do not mix, but autosomal DNA recombines every generation, so you have approx. 50% from each of your parents, 25% from each of your grandparents (exact amount may vary), 12.5% from each of your great-grandparents, 6% from each of your great-great-grandparents, 3% from each of your great-great-great-grandparents (the Neanderthal ancestry equivalent in Eurasians), 1.5% from each of your great-great-great-great-grandparents (some 200-250 years ago), etc.<br /><br />I am well aware of how this works. In Puerto Rico, the average is 15% Afro, 15% Native and 70% Euro. This evened out across the population over the centuries. <br /><br />I wasn't talking about my grandmother literally being a slave! I would venture a possibility she may have been a slave during the Islamic Medieval period. I don't have evidence for her ever having been one in the modern era; not genealogical and not genetic. So I cannot chance guess it based on L3b1a mitochondria alone, because L3b1a is as much Eurafrican as it is Tropical African. It can go either way. This makes it much more complicated.<br /><br />In fact I am in the process of taking a further test. I do not believe it will give me any more info than what I already have. Most of my L3b1a matches in FTDNA are Hispanic and can trace their roots to Spain. The ONLY only that is distantly related that is African at all is from Eastern Africa. The common ancestor with this one would've been well over a thousand years ago. Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.com