tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post4628031100787513541..comments2023-05-15T07:11:30.874+02:00Comments on Leherensuge: R1b1b2a1 is almost unique of West EuropeMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-58983083224376200772018-02-03T03:51:21.137+01:002018-02-03T03:51:21.137+01:00I would have to agree I have the R1b L11, i come b...I would have to agree I have the R1b L11, i come back anitolian on oracle 4Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13041284327512837435noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-35526069330056500492016-08-12T21:32:34.127+02:002016-08-12T21:32:34.127+02:00I had my dad's DNA done through 23andme. His ...I had my dad's DNA done through 23andme. His lineage comes from Genoa and his haplogroup came back as R1b1b2a1a2d. All of his grandparents immigrated to the US in the late 1800's. It seems the ancestry portion isn't that great yet, as his Italian heritage appears to be underreported on their percentages (father was Italian, mother was Finnish)but from my understanding of this, it would appear what the paper trail says is accurate in regards to his haplogroup. Very interesting! Thanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07874589862476029360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-3293453429402795792015-10-22T02:19:45.562+02:002015-10-22T02:19:45.562+02:00Thanks for the info Maju. I tested both my materna...Thanks for the info Maju. I tested both my maternal grandpa's Rosario line and my great maternal grandpa's Figueroa line and they both came out as R1b1b2a1a. It's clear to me that my maternal family, although living way up in the Hills of Puerto Rico for centuries, very much had their roots in the Canaries and Iberia. :-) Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656563742645201926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-26556978841273869052015-01-24T18:53:24.410+01:002015-01-24T18:53:24.410+01:00Basically most people in Latin Europe do not care ...Basically most people in Latin Europe do not care about their ancestry. They are Romans what means a "mixed poutpurri" and they like it that way. So population genetics? What for? That's "racist"! They say or think... <br /><br />Unless that changes, do not expect big advances. Most of the research done in Iberia itself is foreign (although there are some exceptions in the Basque Country and Catalonia). There was even that horrible study on Iberian autosomal DNA which totally excluded not just Basques but every province or region around them, on obvious political fear of showing that Basques are actually different (which is anyhow shown in other foreign studies once and again). So basically they sampled Castilians, Asturians and Valencians (these three ammalgamated amorphously) and also Catalans and Andalusians (somewhat different each). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-82694761032211836462015-01-24T18:44:01.899+01:002015-01-24T18:44:01.899+01:00I don't know why or rather I think it has to d...I don't know why or rather I think it has to do partly with politics: some states like France are openly hostile to population genetic research and make it very difficult, resulting in France being a question mark in the middle of European genetic knowledge (and it's the largest state of Europe after Russia!), Spain is not really. But as genetics could show that French are not an amorphous bunch, but rather a Frankenstein made of pieces (or whatever, we really know very little), they make research near impossible. <br /><br />Spain is not that bad but there it's economic resources and popular interest what are lacking, so researchers have to do with relatively old means. They are doing a good job in many cases in spite of that but there is not the sociological interest nor the popular expenditure in private genetic tests as yours, that create a favorable climate for research elsewhere. So research is largely in hands of US or German and Swedish universities and that causes a bias. We know more about very rare Swedish R1b subclades than about the bulk of Iberian R1b, let alone the French! Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-33854829750927226712015-01-24T16:10:18.624+01:002015-01-24T16:10:18.624+01:00We just did 23 and me and my husband got R1b1b2a1 ...We just did 23 and me and my husband got R1b1b2a1 for his paternal lineage (Y chromosome). His Y chromosome should come from Galicia, Spain so it fits the Western Europe location. <br /><br />Wondering why they don't take it further to the subgroups - do you know if it is lack of resolution in the data or do they usually dwelve deeper? The do provide SNPs but I haven't analyzed that data yet, we only got the first results yesterday.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06323773590106441891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-81634602124075175732014-10-11T10:34:58.975+02:002014-10-11T10:34:58.975+02:00The asterisk means that it is the "others&quo...The asterisk means that it is the "others" category; that your individual lineage is within R1b1b2a but not maybe within downstream haplogroups R1b1b2a1, R1b1b2a2, etc. What exactly it excludes must be interpreted from context. <br /><br />A more precise nomenclature could be something like R1b1b2a(xR1b1b2a1,R1b1b2a2), for example, where the eXcluded subhaplogroups are listed specifically after the "x" character, but for practical reasons this style is often replaced by forms like R1b1b2a*, where the reader must interpret from context what is excluded from the category.<br /><br /><i>what is the other representation of my hoplagroup with those L and M numbers?</i><br /><br />Those are mutations, single nucleotide polimorfisms (SNPs) in most cases. While haplogroup names change following a want-to-be-logical method of alphanumerical sorting of our knowledge, mutation names are fixated since discovery (the letter represents the lab, the number is sequential) although some times two or more names represent the same mutation (as described by several labs). <br /><br />Because haplogroup nomenclature changes over time, it is common practice to list one of the defining mutations along the name. Sometimes even using the mutation along the first part of the name because long names are impractical anyhow. For example R1b-S116 does not mean that R1b is defined by the mutation S116 (it is not) but that I decided to shorten R1b1a2a1a2 (S116). <br /><br />For more detailed information on each lineage please visit ISOGG: http://www.isogg.org/tree/Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-4837950588837175482014-10-10T19:05:31.014+02:002014-10-10T19:05:31.014+02:00I am R1b1b2a* (what is this star at the end I dont...I am R1b1b2a* (what is this star at the end I dont know however 23and me represents my hoplagroiups with that star), Where I am in your map and can you tell me what are those L and M switches sucha s they say r1b1b2 Lnn or Mnn or Ht35? I am sorry I am new into this, but what is the other representation of my hoplagroup with those L and M numbers? <br />Bora Kizilirmakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09750832812212480475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-78987876987161436542010-12-31T02:21:37.327+01:002010-12-31T02:21:37.327+01:00Have you checked Anthroeurope? It's a blog mad...Have you checked <a href="http://anthroeurope.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Anthroeurope</a>? It's a blog made by a young amateur anthropologist from Gascony (in English). He "collects" faces (from Facebook?) and makes series and composites. I can find three from Wales: Caernafon, Anglesey and Pembrokeshire (which should be the true essence of Welshness, I imagine). <br /><br />Enjoy.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-1366993395502950992010-12-31T01:02:48.245+01:002010-12-31T01:02:48.245+01:00This is a better photo. Still look archaic Britis...This is a better photo. Still look archaic British? The friend in the photo is one quarter Sicilian and three quarter Irish.Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13747093567397999406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-5680777961439390232010-12-31T00:13:39.752+01:002010-12-31T00:13:39.752+01:00I certainly look British. All my recent ancestors...I certainly look British. All my recent ancestors came from Britain except my great grandmother, who immigrated from Finland. So I am seven-eighths British and one-eighth Finn. If my paternal line passed through Iberia, it was a very long time ago. Still, it only really matches there. My primary interest is the historical migration of peoples that is studied by y-chrom DNA.<br /><br />Have you ever seen a digital composit of faces from Wales or some other representation of an ancient Briton? Dienekes does a lot of that stuff. I have never seen him create a Briton.Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13747093567397999406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-91643520291783099822010-12-30T13:11:04.955+01:002010-12-30T13:11:04.955+01:00I had to make a choice on that blog issue. I was n...I had to make a choice on that blog issue. I was not really happy on how the "political" posts (typically more common, as there's something going on every day) "ate" the anthropological aspect. However I had to struggle with myself about that.<br /><br />If you become a "follower" (you can do it anonymously) you'll get instant feedback in your blogger dashboard, so you can read headlines and first paragraphs without visiting anywhere as such. You can also follow via Google reader (very practical for all kind of stuff, you can read full articles that way without visiting). That way you can keep track of both blogs' contents without much bother. It's like reading the news with breakfast, so to say...<br /><br />"My paternal family tree comes to the USA through Wales, but obviously it was in Iberia before that. According to my searches on the YHRD site, it was in Valencia at some time". <br /><br />I guess so then. But you do have a very "British archaic" face, what does not need to have any relation with your paternal lineage. In fact the first thing I though was that you look a lot like my apartment mate, who is from London (but your face is more narrow/long and of course other details). But the similitude is quite striking in any case, specially the deep set blue eyes that give that peculiar inquisitive expression. <br /><br />Cheers.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-40309011777173328022010-12-30T05:43:17.963+01:002010-12-30T05:43:17.963+01:00Thank you for all of your hard work on this partic...Thank you for all of your hard work on this particular subject, Maju. I am S116* myself and I always look for new data on this or on Southern Iberia in general. My paternal family tree comes to the USA through Wales, but obviously it was in Iberia before that. According to my searches on the YHRD site, it was in Valencia at some time.<br /><br />By the way, I always enjoyed having your two blog topics together in one blog. It seemed like your particular contribution. Now I look at the anthropology blog every day but the political blog not as much. <br /><br />Keep up the good work.Clayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13747093567397999406noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-27471763921557362192010-09-19T22:40:48.651+02:002010-09-19T22:40:48.651+02:00LOL, I had already read and even linked to that Cr...LOL, I had already read and even linked to that Cruciani paper (zoho viewer). I totally forgot about it though. Thanks in any case. :)<br /><br />"Strangely, the pdf says Cruciani is the main author, but the dx.doi link above says Trombetta is the main author (he's 2nd author in the pdf)".<br /><br />Seems a typo: U152 has overwritten Cruciani's name but the "a" note and the comma following it remain. <br /><br />"The isoclines are logarithmic, that's why the blue lines span a disproportionate amount of the percentage range".<br /><br />I'd say it's not a good idea. I'd rather draw them as 5%, 10%, 20% and 30% for instance. That would be more informative.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-78966160326315471162010-09-19T22:21:35.014+02:002010-09-19T22:21:35.014+02:00The isoclines are logarithmic, that's why the ...The isoclines are logarithmic, that's why the blue lines span a disproportionate amount of the percentage range.<br /><br />The Cruciani study is<br /><br />http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.07.006<br /><br />Strong intra- and inter-continental differentiation revealed by Y chromosome SNPs M269, U106 and U152<br /><br />I have the pdf:<br /><br />http://www.sendspace.com/file/z61ki9<br /><br />Strangely, the pdf says Cruciani is the main author, but the dx.doi link above says Trombetta is the main author (he's 2nd author in the pdf).aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-35294952212900267552010-09-17T05:55:01.954+02:002010-09-17T05:55:01.954+02:00Btw, what Cruciani's paper is that one?Btw, what Cruciani's paper is that one?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-35751048449598155102010-09-17T05:53:57.692+02:002010-09-17T05:53:57.692+02:00Very nice maps, the seem to confirm the maps poste...Very nice maps, the seem to confirm the maps posted in the article, though you emphasize some parameters because of your choice of lower limit at 8% for the main blue line and lack of marking greater levels, which are sometimes very distant from a mere 8% (even as much as 49% in the R1b1b2a1a2*.<br /><br />In any case, it seems more and more obvious to me that R1b1b2a1a2 (P312) expanded from the Franco-Cantabrian region. It's probable that Iberian P312* can be reduced by the discovery of one or two characteristic haplogroups. This happens in the sub-Pyrenean populations, where two subhaplogroups (b and c)are very important. However further SW nothing has been clarified as of yet.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-34790726906475818892010-09-17T04:01:04.958+02:002010-09-17T04:01:04.958+02:00Maju, I've made these maps using the recent da...Maju, I've made these maps using the recent data from Myres and Cruciani, and I thought you'd like to see them. Note that I used the Myres/Cruciani only to estimate the make up of R1b1b2, but for the overall frequency of R1b1b2 I used aggregated data from many other studies and yhrd, which I think is much better. Combining the 2 I obtained the frequencies of the below R1b1b2 haplogroups.<br /><br />L21<br />http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5751/l21snptested.gif<br /><br /><br />U106<br />http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5308/u106snptested.gif<br /><br /><br />U152<br />http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9885/u152snptested.gif<br /><br /><br />P312(xL21,U152) [Note that this includes SRY2627]<br />http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/3839/p312xl21u152snptested.gif<br /><br /><br />R1b1b2 "confluence"; this map was made using the blue contour lines in the maps above<br />http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1994/r1b1b2confluence.gifaargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-24338309829916051452010-09-05T16:39:14.404+02:002010-09-05T16:39:14.404+02:00Good caveats, thanks.
The Bashkirs are totally a...Good caveats, thanks. <br /><br />The Bashkirs are totally anomalous in East Europe, being very high in R1b overall. They must have got some kind of founder effect but who knows how or when! <br /><br />Even if they speak Turkic nowadays, that does not seem to have been their original language, with "Hungarian" being reported before the Mongol conquest. Maybe this language was also acquired somehow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-51516121840359284482010-09-05T00:50:05.460+02:002010-09-05T00:50:05.460+02:00There is one by Morelli (included in my original p...<i>There is one by Morelli (included in my original post) but it does not say anything about the Cyprus and Algeria eccentric hotspots.</i><br /><br />But note that the sample sizes are amongst the smallest for those regions, just 67 and 15. It's a statistical anomaly. Anyhow, finding 1 out of 15 in Cyprus is indicative that M269* must have a decent presence there, to have already been spotted in just 15 samples, but I'll bet it's probably less than 6,7%.<br /><br />Ok, I looked at a study of Cyprus by Capelli, with 65 samples, and there were 2 candidates for R1b1b2* (393=12), which would put it around 3%, assuming none of these are in fact L23*, which to me is probably very likely.<br /><br />The figure that does stand out for me is Iran and the Tatar/Bashkir region, though in the latter, M269* was found only in Bashkirs, but not in the 300+ Tatars, Udmurts, and other ethnic groups of the region. And the Bashkirs are the weirdos who had, what was it, 20% or something U152? Bizarre.aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-59768776832438508992010-09-04T08:00:05.913+02:002010-09-04T08:00:05.913+02:00This would seem to imply that the majority of Turk...This would seem to imply that the majority of Turkish R1b1b2 is R1b1b2a(xR1b1b2a1). <br /><br />It is suggestive of minor expansions at the R1b1b2* stage but they are difficult to understand without a haplotype tree (except the Ashkenazi cluster that would seem a specific founder effect). <br /><br />There is one by Morelli (included in my original post) but it does not say anything about the Cyprus and Algeria eccentric hotspots. It does seem to suggest however that there is a second parallel haplogroup to R1b1b2a1 in, essentially, Anatolia. We see it as R1b1b2a* for lack of current resolution but it's probably an 'R1b1b2a2' in full right.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-59550561642987836312010-09-04T00:40:01.586+02:002010-09-04T00:40:01.586+02:00I was sloppy, he he. It's a map of frequencies...I was sloppy, he he. It's a map of frequencies, calculated over the entire y-dna (it's not a percentage over their R1b1b2 samples). And the commas are decimal separators: if it says 3,5 then it means 3.5%.aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-73760207772954235632010-09-03T14:33:48.629+02:002010-09-03T14:33:48.629+02:00What does the map indicate, Argie? Diversity, perc...What does the map indicate, Argie? Diversity, percentage? Is the comma a decimal marker (as in Spanish, French...) or just a sequential comma? I'm sorry I don't really understand what the map means.<br /><br />"I don't want to spoil the plot, so I won't say anything further. :)"<br /><br />Oh, please, spoil us. :DMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-52031185293239360312010-09-03T04:44:29.384+02:002010-09-03T04:44:29.384+02:00M269 L23- (version 2, better).gif
I first made a...<a href="http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8076/m269l23version2better.gif" rel="nofollow">M269 L23- (version 2, better).gif</a> <br /><br />I first made a map of M269* exactly 1 year ago. Now, with the Myres study, which tested for this haplogroup for the first time ever, I've made what I think is a vastly better version than my original map. The Myres samples make up about 40% of the samples I used in building the map, but the populations they covered were different than the other samples I used (aka more eastern), so this is a revealing new look at the distribution of M269*. I don't want to spoil the plot, so I won't say anything further. :)aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-11186264767976563592010-08-28T22:57:59.351+02:002010-08-28T22:57:59.351+02:00"U152 is clearly centered in North Italy"..."U152 is clearly centered in North Italy".<br /><br />I agree. I also had that impression when you sent your modified spreadsheets. <br /><br />Cruciani-2010 (link to full paper in main article) maps the highest frequency of R1b1b2a1a2d-U152 (that he calls R1b1b2h) around Genoa, with a much sharper cline to the East than to the West (France). R1b1b2a1a1-U106 is in turn most frequent in West Germany. <br /><br />However U152 is very much scattered, also into Central Europe, France and South England, and is even important in the little R1b1b2 that may exist in Eastern Europe. <br /><br />So this lineage represents, IMO, the main expansion line of its parent lineage R1b1b2a1a2 ('South clade'), which headed eastwards and northwards in whatever process (Magdalenian expansion or your choice). <br /><br />Re. Corsica: if you look at Cruciani's figures, similar densities are only found in North Italy, with Central Italy having only some 18% of the whole Y-DNA pool, a value lower than the French sample (20%).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com