tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post1205366084441065209..comments2023-05-15T07:11:30.874+02:00Comments on Leherensuge: R1b1 origin: Italy or West Asia?Majuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-53568311031427687052011-06-03T09:58:36.748+02:002011-06-03T09:58:36.748+02:00^^ Spam: no, thanks.^^ Spam: no, thanks.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-80447852949860667672011-06-03T09:12:02.066+02:002011-06-03T09:12:02.066+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Bradly Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08254401761479932682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-68789295720545974782010-01-21T09:41:49.897+01:002010-01-21T09:41:49.897+01:00Because I don't see the mtDNA even at small nu...Because I don't see the mtDNA even at small numbers. <br /><br />Anyhow Uralics were pastoralists, not hunter-gatherers. Property and in particular pastoralism reinforces the status of males and weakens that of females.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-74921672952903431492010-01-21T00:03:45.178+01:002010-01-21T00:03:45.178+01:00"Again we see a pattern where the ethno-cultu..."Again we see a pattern where the ethno-cultural adscription is largely related to Y-DNA and not mtDNA (patriarchal or at least patrilocal/-lineal). Of course, there's some mtDNA arriving with the Y-DNA (CZ and D) but at much lower levels". <br /><br />And another example of the relative independence of Y and mtDNA haplogroups. You seem quite prepared to accept this as being a common situation in more recent times, but have immense difficulty as seeing the same phenomenon operating in more ancient times. Why?terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-18416795781516777462010-01-20T05:47:34.153+01:002010-01-20T05:47:34.153+01:00Again we see a pattern where the ethno-cultural ad...Again we see a pattern where the ethno-cultural adscription is largely related to Y-DNA and not mtDNA (patriarchal or at least patrilocal/-lineal). Of course, there's some mtDNA arriving with the Y-DNA (CZ and D) but at much lower levels. Overall modern Finnish look European and their autosomal apportion of Siberian blood is c. 15% only. <br /><br />This case is probably similar to that of North Africans, mutatis mutandi, and maybe other peoples here and there.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-85832904219434137522010-01-20T05:42:57.007+01:002010-01-20T05:42:57.007+01:00Uralic languages spread in Europe with all likelih...Uralic languages spread in Europe with all likelihood in a Neolithic timeframe, beginning in the Middle Volga and largely paralleling at more nordic latitudes (ecological specialization of the Uralic ethnos and most Y-DNA N in general) the spread of Indoeuropeans, with whom they have at least a sprachbund linguistic relationship (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Uralic_languages" rel="nofollow">Indo-Uralic</a> and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_Ceramic_culture" rel="nofollow">Comb Ceramic Culture</a>).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-30378268233569838662010-01-19T21:58:51.024+01:002010-01-19T21:58:51.024+01:00"This division makes sense from the viewpoint..."This division makes sense from the viewpoint of a distribution from SW Europe (or rather Italy), with the African and Northern lineages being local offshoots."<br /><br />I read it in the same way. A newer version of Uralic dispersals model in linguistics places the homeland of Uralic in East-Central Europe with the Samoyed and Ugric branches being result of a long-distance eastward migration. (The previous model argued for the opposite direction of migration.)German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-57315434597042241882010-01-19T18:41:59.103+01:002010-01-19T18:41:59.103+01:00I see: seems I got the wrong concept because the p...I see: seems I got the wrong concept because the paper does mention a North African connection and I failed to notice it in that discussion. <br /><br />Actually Argiedude mentioned it as an isolated Dakar lineage closest to Finnish clades. But that is not what this paper says: within this paper U5b1b is split in four basal sublineages:<br /><br />1. Italian (22)<br />2. Spanish-Italian (23, 24)<br />3. Saami-Yakut (25, 26, 27, 28)<br />4. Berber-Senegalese (29, 30)<br /><br />This division makes sense from the viewpoint of a distribution from SW Europe (or rather Italy), with the African and Northern lineages being local offshoots. <br /><br />I don't understand why it's differently organized in Phylotree, because the reference is this same paper. <br /><br />O_OMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-56287342347170461992010-01-19T16:37:07.924+01:002010-01-19T16:37:07.924+01:00Good finding, German. I was unaware of that paper
...<i>Good finding, German. I was unaware of that paper</i><br /><br />For the records, I actually had mentionned it (without naming it) and gave you the URL here, towards the end of the comments :) <br /><br />http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/sex-biased-admixture-in-americas.html<br /><br />(the Thursday, December 03, 2009 1:26:00 AM comment)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-28285152242262373772010-01-19T15:42:52.323+01:002010-01-19T15:42:52.323+01:00Good. Thanks.Good. Thanks.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-77635381040249902042010-01-19T09:03:31.874+01:002010-01-19T09:03:31.874+01:00I have read Enaffaa's work, thanks. It's c...I have read Enaffaa's work, thanks. It's commented elsewhere in this blog. <br /><br />Anyhow, the migration was surely more in the very LGM period (late Middle UP), when Solutrean and Gravettian cultures merge in the Iberian province, creating a unique culture (sometimes included in the general Solutrean maps but in fact very strongly Gravettian) that is probably at the origin of Iberomaurusian/Oranian culture (whose oldest dates are in Morocco, whose tool types seem related to those from SE Spain and Portugal in the same period and whose athropometrical type is considered a Cro-Magnon variant). <br /><br />When people talk of post-LGM migration, they mean the Magdalenian expansion and maybe parallel (but not too well known) similar processes in Eastern Europe. However that would be c. 15,000 years ago, while the Iberomaurusian genesis is more of c. 22-20,000 years ago, quite older. <br /><br />As no other process can explain the flow from Iberia to North Africa, this implies that the lineages involved existed already in the Gravettian age. And is one of the very reasons why I dispute the usual MC age estimates. Not just H but H1, H3, H4 and H7 (and also probably other lineages as this U5b branch) must have existed that long ago. <br /><br />The presence of some (minor but noticeable) links to Italy suggests to me that Gravettian arrived to SW Europe via this country. Alternatively there could have been a separate crossing from Sicily but the evidence in favor of this is rather inconclusive. <br /><br /><i>My point is: this migration or migrations may have brought Afroasiatic speakers into Africa, no? I've been a believer in the African origin of this family, but then this article on R1b1 and the origin of Chadic in North Africa made me somewhat doubtful</i>.<br /><br />Afroasiatic is just too recent in time (in spite of being probably the oldest dated language family) to have been implied in this phenomenon. It was surely involved in the Capsian backflow though, which has its origins at the Nile. I'd rather believe that some allegedly Vascoid words that are found in Berber may represent this Oranian substratum (though too unclear - and could also date from the Megalithic period).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-60189282081123726452010-01-19T04:28:54.781+01:002010-01-19T04:28:54.781+01:00My point is: this migration or migrations may have...My point is: this migration or migrations may have brought Afroasiatic speakers into Africa, no? I've been a believer in the African origin of this family, but then this article on R1b1 and the origin of Chadic in North Africa made me somewhat doubtful.German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-1662196718573274982010-01-19T03:33:58.251+01:002010-01-19T03:33:58.251+01:00More on the same post-LGM migration into North Afr...More on the same post-LGM migration into North Africa in: Mitochondrial DNA haplogroup H structure in North Africa, by Hajer Ennafaa et al. (2209).German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-18970793519319523012010-01-18T17:23:43.993+01:002010-01-18T17:23:43.993+01:00Good finding, German. I was unaware of that paper,...Good finding, German. I was unaware of that paper, so thanks for the reference. It certainly reinforces the idea, specially as the highest basal diversity for U5b1b is in SW Europe (though looks more like Italy than Spain - France is not mentioned, even if it was the main "refuge" area).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-45076735827781779112010-01-18T16:53:55.617+01:002010-01-18T16:53:55.617+01:00I can see the ambiguity. This new study just invok...I can see the ambiguity. This new study just invoked in my memory an earlier one, which highlighted a surprising connection on the level of a U5 subclade between Saami and Berbers: "Thus, although these previous studies have highlighted the role of the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area as a major source of the hunter-gatherer populations that gradually repopulated much of central and northern Europe when climatic conditions began to improve ∼15 ky ago, the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern North Africans." (Achilli et al. Saami and Berbers—An Unexpected Mitochondrial DNA Link, p. 885).German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-66794917215359218032010-01-18T06:45:35.171+01:002010-01-18T06:45:35.171+01:00Erratum:
R1b12, obviously means R1b1b2.Erratum:<br /><br />R1b12, obviously means R1b1b2.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-5701670913394941892010-01-18T06:43:16.487+01:002010-01-18T06:43:16.487+01:00It's not conclusive that R1b is European. R1b1...It's not conclusive that R1b is European. R1b12, which is the main European subclade looks quite more haplotype diverse towards West Asia, and this one also appears so far centered in Africa. So it may be the other way around. It's not too clear cut. <br /><br /><a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2008/08/discovered-upper-egyptian-late.html" rel="nofollow">Edfu murals</a> are anyhow dated to c. 15,000 BP (Balanian-Silisian culture but admittedly I know nothing of its toolkit and affinities), what is coincident with post-LGM and with Magdalenian expansion. Upper Egypt anyhow, like Anatolia further north (where possibly related Baldibi is), seems like a crossroads of various regions, with "traffic" now flowing in different directions at different times.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-89554565248278584212010-01-18T00:31:57.563+01:002010-01-18T00:31:57.563+01:00"One very tentative possibility could be that..."One very tentative possibility could be that R1b1/R1b1a migrated indeed with U6 and other Eurasian-originated lineages such as mtDNA X and Y-DNA J1."<br /><br />European populations pushed down south by the Ice Age: some ended up in southern European refugia, others in Africa?German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-62047995533901231302010-01-17T17:26:52.696+01:002010-01-17T17:26:52.696+01:00German: they have no apparent correlation (at leas...German: they have no apparent correlation (at least in distribution, that is always more clear). U6 is found in Sudan but not (or not significatively) in Central Africa. U6a probably coalesced at the Nile but overall the highest diversity of U6 is in NW Africa, followed closely, by Iberia. Not sure if there is a local subclade (tiny) in Sardinia too. <br /><br />I understand that U6 probably represents the early colonization of North Africa from West Asia (Dabban industries, similar to the widespread Aurignacoid complex of that period), H and V the second wave from Iberia (Oranian or Iberomaurusian culture), U6a and various L(xM,N), together with Y-DNA E1b1b, probably the Capsian culture from the Nile area (Afroasiatic language probably) and I'm not sure about mtDNA K and Y-DNA J1, which are also relevant in NW Africa. <br /><br />Hence the migration of R1b1a into, probably, Sudan and then Central Africa seems to represent a different process and a male-biased one, at least in what regards Central Africa. <br /><br />One very tentative possibility could be that R1b1/R1b1a migrated indeed with U6 and other Eurasian-originated lineages such as mtDNA X and Y-DNA J1. But there could have been more than one migration (cf. the rock art of Upper Egypt, for instance). The archaeological record is not sufficiently good, I believe, to make a clear judgment.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-68131886576810957202010-01-17T17:01:20.010+01:002010-01-17T17:01:20.010+01:00Is there a reasonably common pattern in age and di...Is there a reasonably common pattern in age and distribution between mtDNA U6 and R1b1?German Dziebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10703679732205862495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-18359244348389533362010-01-17T16:16:37.465+01:002010-01-17T16:16:37.465+01:00It's a paragroup and AFAIK nobody has studied ...It's a paragroup and AFAIK nobody has studied it yet in any depth. It might be a migration in either direction or two different minor branches of JT. Not located in Iberia nor West Asia afaik (this is mentioned by the study on Taforalt aDNA, but not sure its source).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-76508653029034589892010-01-17T09:10:05.758+01:002010-01-17T09:10:05.758+01:00"Also you have the JT(xJ,T) shared by North A..."Also you have the JT(xJ,T) shared by North Africa and Italy - and nobody else". <br /><br />That's interesting. Does it indicate a movement between from Africa to Italy at some stage? What about any connection to Iberia?terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-59821695754964170072010-01-16T04:30:11.313+01:002010-01-16T04:30:11.313+01:00As I think you're a firm believer in the Kurga...<i>As I think you're a firm believer in the Kurgan hypothesis, how do you reconcile Underhill's statement that there weren't any movements from Europe in Central Asia during bronze age</i>.<br /><br />Well, "believer" is not a word I would use: it has religious undertones. <br /><br />Anyhow, I'm not sure if I know/recall all the data re this paper of Underhill (date, DOI, link?... some reference please!) <br /><br />Anyhow, I don't treat Kurgan IEs as specifically European, after all before some Tsar decided otherwise, Europe ended at the Volga, and hence Samara was in Asia. I understand that this Euro-Asian border culture expanded first into Europe and Central Asia (Chalcolithic), from where it would eventually head southwards to the modern Indo-Iranian area. You should not see too much European-specific genetics associated with Kurgan expansion in Asia, unless it's something from the Samara basin as such or some back-flow hard to pinpoint in the archaeological record.<br /><br />Also the West Eurasian nature of Central Asia is pre-Kurgan, dating at least to Neolithic and probably to the very origins of colonization of West Eurasia c. 50-40,000 BP.<br /><br /><i>Don't you agree that R1a1a7 seems to fit a Slavic dispersion rather than the Underhill's explanation?</i>.<br /><br />No. I discussed this at Dienekes (now I recall) and my point is that there is no clear Slavic association. The high presence of the lineage in Greece (but not in Southern Slavs) is a clear signal. The low presence of the lineage in Ukraine and Belarus is also signal of non-Slavic correlation.<br /><br />Most people just simply do not understand the process of Kurgan spread in Europe and the central importance of Central Poland (and also somewhat East Germany) in the spread of the main branch leading to Corded Ware and modern Western IE languages. The Balcanic spread is even more complicated.<br /><br />For me that lineage R1a1a7 is precisely a marker of Kurgan spread <b>in Europe</b>, which is not too related to Indo-Iranian spread, which is mostly a distinct phenomenon, nor even to the minor branch that lead to Hittites either. <br /><br /><i>And the matches between bronze and iron age south Siberia samples and the current individuals related to them, are kind of strangely distributed. Do they really fit so well into the Kurgan hypothesis?</i>.<br /><br />Not sure what you mean. My impression was that they were very much consistent. Anyhow, for what I know R1a1 could perfectly have a pre-Kurgan distribution, just that it was enhanced by Kurgan migrations. Like in the case of R1b, only a comprehensive detailed analysis can give us all the clues.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-28778832425233375282010-01-16T04:11:00.122+01:002010-01-16T04:11:00.122+01:00Terry (somehow I missed your comment before):
It ...Terry (somehow I missed your comment before):<br /><br /><i>It could also mean that R1b1 came into Italy at two different times, by two different routes</i>.<br /><br />It does not only have both lineages but also at least two other R1b1* clades (3 individuals: 2 closely related but the other not at all). <br /><br />An Italy-Dalmatia to Turkey migration in the late UP is not unlikely at all (cave art connections), with Egypt becoming the next destination. <br /><br /><i>I'm sure you've argued elsewhere that they do necessarily follow the same patterns</i>.<br /><br />I'm sure the cases are very different. <br /><br /><i>"Is Natufian an option? - if it is, I guess It could explain better a high level in mtDNA H, at least"<br /><br />It could explain a lot of other things too</i>.<br /><br />Natufian can't explain much re. mtDNA H1, H3, H4 and H7, which are the lineages shared by SW Europe and NW Africa, plus U6 (which surely migrated in the opposite direction). None of these lineages exist or is frequent and old-looking enough in West Asia. Only a direct flow in the West can explain.<br /><br />Also you have the JT(xJ,T) shared by North Africa and Italy - and nobody else.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3563811638411839784.post-56677080804728587752010-01-15T21:22:01.018+01:002010-01-15T21:22:01.018+01:00"All that Dienekes/Vizachero speculation abou...<i>"All that Dienekes/Vizachero speculation about R1b in Europe being Neolithic is a total nonsense and contradicts abundant academic peer-reviewed estimates." </i><br /><br />At Dienekes', in the comments of the paper of Underhill about R1a, Anatole Klyosov seemed to agree on the improbable datations. As I think you're a firm believer in the Kurgan hypothesis, how do you reconcile Underhill's statement that there weren't any movements from Europe in Central Asia during bronze age (<i>especially as we know that Kazakhstan and south Siberia were full of Europoid mtDNA during bronze age (or at least we could say "west Eurasian"), associated with R1a1a, at least in south Siberia</i>), with the Kurgan hypothesis? <br /><br />Don't you agree that R1a1a7 seems to fit a Slavic dispersion rather than the Underhill's explanation? <br /><br />And the matches between bronze and iron age south Siberia samples and the current individuals related to them, are kind of strangely distributed. Do they really fit so well into the Kurgan hypothesis?<br /><br />I want to make clear that I myself favor the Kurgan hypothesis at the moment but I still have strong doubts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com